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MS / BOP / TSV (Money Stream / Balance of Power / Time Segmented Volume) Topic Rating:
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King247
Posted : Monday, July 10, 2017 12:58:52 PM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Hi,

I'm new to TC2000, and I wanted to hear from people experienced with MS/BOP/TSV. I've created an area below a chart with MS/BOP/TSV overlaid.

I've Read Don Worden's Evolution of the Cumulative MoneyStream and Balance of Power, and the Help topics on MS, BOP and TSV. I understand they are legacy calculations; I need to understand their behavior better. I'm asking for peoples' experience with MS/BOP, based on your use of the indicators for some time. No disclaimers or links to the topics necessary; I would like to hear about experience.

Since you can select time periods, is BOP trying to predict WITHIN that period, or BASED ON that period for the period or periods AFTER that period? If trying to predict after the current period, what is your experience of roughly how many periods after?

BOP appears to fluctuate a bit in the first few minutes of a new period, and then 'settles down,' changing only if price and volume change significantly. It seems that this is true for longer periods (Hour or longer). Given the preceding question, is there any further significance to BOP's value as it relates to periods directly preceding the present period?

The literature is clear that it's best to interpret the two indicators (MS and BOP) together; if they move together, a price move is more likely. So should they be interpreted very generally?

The literature states: "Before you arrive at a decision on any stock, check BOP (as well as all other indicators you find useful) in a variety of time frames." So various timeframes should be looked at. But if the indicators are general, wouldn't timeframes less than an hour, or even a day, be insignificant?

Are any particular intraday timeframes best?  Should any be avoided (e.g. less than 1 hour)?

The literature seems to indicate, for example, if both MS/BOP are fairly negative (-280 / -60), then notwithstanding the current price action, the future probability is that the price will decline or at least will not recover much to the up side. The literature states that neither are a crystal ball—we're talking about probability—but taken together, they're more often predictive than not. Correct?

To put it another way, if price is incrementally rising and MS/BOP are incrementally falling, then the future probability for price is down (right?). Do BOP timeframes say anything about the time length of the probable price action?

There is often clear divergence between intraday timeframes. Should longer timeframes have more weight than shorter ones?

I tend to have a 2-5 day trade horizon (swing). Are there any particular timeframes people recommend for using MS/BOP in this case?

Shorter timeframes seem more reactive to price moves. In peoples' experience, are longer timeframes reactive at all to MS/BOP's action in shorter timeframes?

There is a cautionary statement in the literature about reading MS/BOP too literally with larger, more liquid stocks. Should that apply doubly to ETFs?

Since price action is a continuum (with possible acceleration up or down due to overnight news), in the last hour or two of the session, if 2 Hour and 4 Hour are solid green on BOP with MS rising from a depressed region, should one have any reason to think that the next day's price action has a strong probability of a higher open?

I've set up TSV with parameters: TSV = 30, MA = 15. For the swing trading horizon, I would think that a 1 Hour chart might be best (referring to 30 Min. and 15 Min. as well as longer). Should the TSV values I've selected be changed? If so, why?

Please feel free to answer/comment on any section of the above. Thank you in advance for any input.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Monday, July 10, 2017 1:19:38 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

I'm sure lots of folks will post positive experiences with MS, BOP, and TSV, and lots of great advice.

But all your questions (and my thick skull) demonstrate why I personally avoid these.

Just playing devil's advocate here ... I'm sure they're great, it's just that as a computer programmer I have a natural aversion to black box, proprietary indicators. I'd really rather know how the calculations work under the hood, so I can make my own educated decisions on their use.

But that's just me. :)

Welcome to TC2000! I'm sure you'll find the forums useful. Bruce is a genious. And check the live class schedule - if they're going anywhere near where you are - I highly recommend going. Even if you have to travel a bit. 

King247
Posted : Monday, July 10, 2017 1:58:35 PM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Thank you for the advice. I understand your reluctance. Right now my system is much simpler, and doing pretty well. Since the indicators were described as predictive, I'm hoping they'll help with timing.

The classes will be within 200 miles in November. I'm seriously thinking about it.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Monday, July 10, 2017 2:32:32 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

QUOTE (King247)
The classes will be within 200 miles in November. I'm seriously thinking about it.

HIGHLY recommended. I promise you won't be disappointed. Been going for years.

The material covered both days is the same, but since you're new, I would attend both days. There's a lot of good stuff, and you don't want to miss anything. And in my case, repetition helps me learn. After the Friday session I review my notes, and when Saturday rolls around I usually take fewer notes - only the stuff I missed Friday. It's nice to be able to kick back on Saturday and listen to and watch Michael's screen instead of taking notes and fiddling with your own laptop. But everyone has their own style.

I would get a room in the same hotel - especially with a 200 mile drive - and stay overnight. Again, I promise you will not be disappointed. You get to see and take in everything twice without having to drive back & forth. Actually I check in on Thursday, chlll out, have a relaxing dinner and get a good night's sleep so I'm ready to go Friday morning, and I'm already at the hotel fresh and don't have to commute Friday morning. For me it's like a little two-day vacation.

As a bonus, Michael Thompson (the trainer) uses MS, TSV, and BOP on his charts. Usually the classes highlight "what's new" in TC2000 since the last time they hit your town, but there are several breaks during the day, and Michael answers as many questions as he can. Great guy.

In school, I always sat in the back row, but at these classes I always sit in the front row. They're good about having enough space for everybody, but get there early if you like to sit in front. And if you get there early enough, you can have Michael almost all to yourself. I mean, he still has to check out the room to make sure everything is kosher, but while the other attendees are still in bed, or in transit, the better chance you have of getting some of Micheal's individual time. During the breaks during the day, the lines at Micheal's table can get kinda long. Your best shot at individual attention is before or after class.

And if you're staying in the same hotel, and offer to buy him dinner Thursday or Friday night, perhaps he'll share the proprietary information behind MS, TSV, and BOP. :)

 

King247
Posted : Tuesday, July 11, 2017 5:04:23 AM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Bruce,

If this is not the right forum to ask the above questions, please tell me which one is. I would like to get opinions from people who have used the above tools about their experiences. Thank you.

Bruce_L
Posted : Tuesday, July 11, 2017 9:09:58 AM


Worden Trainer

Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 60,336

This forum works and probably gets the most traffic of any forum here. It is technically supposed to be for asking questions for customer training, but other customers answer the questions all the time.

The other three forums which would be most applicable to this sort of discussion are Stock and Market Talk or one of the two TC2000 topics in the General Discussions section. Of those three, Stock and Market Talk probably gets the most traffic.



-Bruce
Personal Criteria Formulas
TC2000 Support Articles
UnclePennybags
Posted : Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:27:08 AM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

Good point. I'm guilty of dropping most of my questions in here because of the traffic volume. 

If a post is obviously in the wrong place, Bruce will move it to a happier home, but we're all pretty friendly around here. One thing that's frowned on is duplicate posts. Bruce will remove all but one of those.

As Bruce said, this one might fit better in one of the General Discussion forums, but will probably grab more eyeballs here.

It's a conundrum. :)

King247
Posted : Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:54:02 AM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Thank you. Anyone, please feel free to weigh in on any of the above questions about MS, BOP and/or TSV. I would love to get opinions from people about their experiences with the above tools.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:00:34 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

QUOTE (King247)
Thank you. Anyone, please feel free to weigh in on any of the above questions about MS, BOP and/or TSV. I would love to get opinions from people about their experiences with the above tools.

C'mon folks, let's show a new user some love! I don't use Worden's proprietary indicators so I can't add much to the discussion.

Bruce, maybe give it a few days and if no one responds here, maybe move this to the Stock and Market Talk forum? Just a thought.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:51:13 AM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

King,

You might be able to find some useful stuff in the webinar archive. Scrolling down the list here are three that might help. Maybe.

I never watched these as I mentioned TSV, MS, and BOP aren't my thing. Yes these are OLD. You'd think that Worden would want to promote the awesomeness of their proprietary indicators and there would be more webinars showcasing them. Maybe Peter Worden is just too modest. LOL.

  • 05/05/2009 - Martha Stokes on TSV
  • 04/21/2009 - MoneyStream in Action - (Layout1) (Layout2)
  • 02/04/2009 - Chart Reading with Peter Worden

Good luck. Enjoy.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 11:02:08 AM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

Not cheap, but they have a "Training Video Library". A few years back they recorded some videos for sale online. 

I still remember getting TeleChart training videos on CDs and DVDs in the mail and running upstairs to my computer to watch. I've been doing this waaay too long.

King247
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 12:43:05 PM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Thank you for the links, Uncle.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 12:48:46 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

Happy to help. Wish I had personal experience to share, but ... you know. Just trying to think of other possible resources since everyone else here seems to be shy.

I really can't believe no one else has responded. If nobody bites soon, maybe ask Bruce to move this to the Stock and Market Talk forum. Might get a response. Might not. Worth a shot.

UnclePennybags
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 1:55:37 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

Might help. Damn, I may have to start using these.

Written by Martha Stokes. Smart lady.

Track The Dark Pools With The Balance Of Power (BOP) Indicator

http://www.traderplanet.com/articles/view/167551-track-the-dark-pools-with-the-balance-of-power-bop-indicator/

Martha Stokes again. Another good short read. She seems to know her sh*t...

Time Segmented Volume - The Ideal Oscillator For Automated Markets

http://www.traderplanet.com/articles/view/167893-time-segmented-volume-the-ideal-oscillator-for-automated-markets/

Guess who?

Don Worden's Amazing Indicators

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/24575963-technitrader/3802646-don-wordens-amazing-indicators

diceman
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 2:03:59 PM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,025

I've found TSV to be the best of these indicators.

Using a daily period of 21(one month) and a 5 day hold.

(arbitrarily selected by me)

 

I simply required TSV to be above zero.

 

I generated(without TSV) lists of stocks to trade.

Created a second list, from those lists. (with TSV)

Tracked the results of both, and found a higher

batting average on the second. (TSV lists)

 

I was unable to improve the batting averages with BOP/MS.

 

One of the problems is definitions. You can only test what you look at.

It may be possible to make more money with BOP/MS,

but what I tested didn't show it.

 

Because I'm not using any voodoo/witchcraft interpretations.

(Simply TSV>0)

I don't think there's much risk adding it to scans.

 

I would also add that I used SP500 stocks.

Mileage may vary with smallcap/penny stocks.

 

You may want to also check out videos by Harry Boxer who is a big fan.

He basically like them “off the charts.”

Views it as a type of money flow, and the more, the better.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

UnclePennybags
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 2:53:32 PM
Registered User
Joined: 6/30/2017
Posts: 707

I haven't poked around enough to say for sure, but Martha seems to have almost more stuff on Worden's indicators than Worden does. 

TC2000 Indicators Taught by TechniTrader

King247
Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:48:35 PM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

Thank you, diceman and Uncle. Tomorrow I'll get further into the info in your posts. I appreciate it.

King247
Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 7:56:21 AM
Gold Customer Gold Customer

Joined: 6/28/2017
Posts: 34

QUOTE (diceman)

I've found TSV to be the best of these indicators.

Thanks for sharing your experience, diceman.

In my limited experience of less than a thousand chart views of a dozen stocks, all conventional timeframes, TSV does seem to be the most reliable of the three. Whether is has much predictive value, I'm not sure.

MS often appears to be closely related to it. BOP is not very predictive, from what I've seen. In fact if I'd done the opposite of BOP's indications (Hourly, Daily, Weekly) half the time, I would have been better off.

I did make a three day swing trade that worked out using the three indicators. Then I took a small loss using the same method. I'm still checking the charts regularly, but not currently using the indicators until I learn more.

I am still interested to hear from anyone who has used any or all of the indicators, especially how many periods they look forward based on the time period selected.

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