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Joined: 5/27/2010
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Good Morning all.
I am new to Swing Trading and would like to know if anyone has experience or suggestions on good training courses to purchase. I have watched the webinars by Tina Logan and Martha Stokes and they both seem good. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Rick
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 426
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Hi Rick,
I know Tina Logan and I can vouch that she is very knowledgeable and a very good instructor. I don't know Martha Stokes but I have heard nothing but good things about her. Maybe Apsll could chime in on her. Either way I am sure that you could not go wrong with Tina or Martha. After all, they both use Telechart.
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 426
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I thought that I would also mention that you are making a good choice in not falling for one of those voodoo, holy grail indicator courses that give you nothing but false hopes in return for your money.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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I am with Booker on this one, there is no holy grail.
Martha Stokes was a great inspiration to me. That is how I came to be here. She does use Telechart and now Free Stock Charts and Stock finder. She says that she uses all three and that each have their own unique tools that serve her well. Like Martha I believe that Telechart is an invaluble tool for finding tradable stocks using the scanning and sorting functions.
You can find many books and web links on Swing trading and then you can find Martha at "TechniTrader.com". The price of tuition will pay you back many times over (if you can understand and follow her teachings).
Good luck...
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Registered User
Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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I would just try to put things in simple terms with simple ideas.
Every trading style falls into a few broad categories:
Trend, pull-back, breakout and so on.
Its an old joke but you should be able to explain
your trading to a child.
(if you cant you've probably out smarted yourself)
Also focus on preserving your capital and money management
and diversification.
One important thing is that this stuff should fit your personality.
From what I've seen, I'm sure Martha and Tina are fine but their
style of thinking wouldn't fit my personality at all.
That should be an important part of your thinking.
Thanks
diceman
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Hi Diceman,
You have me puzzled by your post that Martha and Tina wouldn't fit your personality. The things that you mentioned are part of the course. It is important to learn charting, analyzing trends, trend lines, gaps, technical indicators, how to organize trading with routines, screening for stocks, trade management by risk and money management, how and when to place stops, strategies, entry and exit techniques, top down analysis, with excel files to make your life easier.
These are the basic building blocks of any trader. After a thorough knowledge of all this, then a style that fits you can be made. IMO all this is necessary for any new trader. Could you please enlighten me as to you meaning?
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Its not easy to put into words.
I belonged to a local telechart group in my area.
Everyone there looked the same to me.
Everyone had MACD on their screen.
Everyone used candles.
Everyone had a 20, 50, 200 day mav's on their chart.
Some used Stoc some used RSI.
Most had the same breakout points on charts and the same trend lines.
These are the things traders have been told to use.
I see them as not really understanding what they are doing
but following what they "should" be doing.
Most of the time I'm like Tom Hanks in Big:
I don't get it, I don't get why a robot turns into a building?
I think that a lot of this stuff is sold to be "sexy".
Imagine I say:
My indicators started to turn positive.
My keen sharp eye noticed accumulation in both volume
and money flows.
It was clear to see that the "Big Boys" were starting to buy.
I bought a breakout of my predefined trend lines and fib areas.
I had a nice run.
Now, don't I sound smart? Don't I sound savvy?
Don't I sound like I really know what I'm doing?
Ok, trade number two under the same conditions.
This time my pick hits its stop.
Hey what happened? I thought I was so smart?
I used all my brilliant things.
Its very un-sexy to sell money management.
Its very un-sexy to say no matter what you think
you will probably be correct about 50% of the time.
Your goal is to lose less when your wrong.
I don't really like looking at charts.
I don't really like candles.
I don't really like fib levels.
I don't really like volume/money flow.
I really cant stand analyzing what the "Big Boys" do.
So I would imagine a lot of the Tina and Martha stuff would
drive me crazy in short order.
To me one of the biggest tragedies in trading is how many folks
start their statements with "cant".
You "cant" do this and you "cant" do that.
To me you should be your own worst enemy.
Instead of patting yourself on the back for how smart you are.
You should be asking: What the heck am I doing wrong.
What "rule" or "law" that I've created should I be trying to break?
Once I break rules I can start statements with "can" instead of "cant".
Thanks
diceman
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 426
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That's a very interesting way to look at things and for the most part I agree with what you say. Thanks for sharing. Like you, I once attended a local telechart group and can see where you are coming from. I have never been an indicator trader. Never have been and probably never will be. However I believe that indicators are a great help in filtering a large stock list down to a manageable size for viewing. And this is the reason that I like telechart. Their sorts and scans are hard to beat.
I can't speak for Martha as I do not know her teachings but I believe that you are selling Tina short. She teaches and trades very much the same way that I do. She teaches indicators because all traders should know about them. But mainly it all leads to price action and it is important to fully understand the reasoning behind support, resistance, swing highs and swing lows. I admire Tina for her ability to document trades and if it is a loss, to go back and see what you did wrong. Like it or not, other than breaking news, there is usually a reason why the stock turned. Maybe it hit a major resistance that was not apparent at first. That is how you hone your trading skills.
A new trader can take the hard road and take many years to learn thru the school of hard knocks (like I did) or they can pay a qualified person to teach them in a short time. I wish that I had done that a long time ago because some of those knocks hurt real bad.
But all in all I agree with what you are saying. Anyone that teaches to enter a trade because the 10 ma crossed the 20 ma or because a hockey stick showed up on the chart today is not doing you a great service.
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Joined: 5/27/2010
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Thank You for your input...
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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I also think that you are "selling Martha short" (pun intended)...
She makes it very clear in all her teachings that indicators are mearly filters for scaning and sorting. Candle sticks are for reading sentiment. Never does she use them for entry or exit.
Price and price alone is used to enter a stock and for exit as well. She goes into great detail about risk and money magement. I know that you can agree with her on that Diceman as I have read your feelings on this subject many times.
Thanks Apsll.
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Joined: 2/21/2007
Posts: 797
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[QUOTE=diceman]
I'm sure Martha and Tina are fine but their
style of thinking wouldn't fit my personality at all.
Thanks
diceman
Diceman's personality????????? Cool, I like ABK
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
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Bye the way my comments in no way were meant to be confrontational or in disagreement with the Diceman. I have been glad over the years to gather these pearls of his wisdom. I place them neatly down as though they were pieces of a larger puzzle. His comments above were treated in this way, as just another piece that I have fit neatly in its proper place.
I have actually asked him about his trading methods before and like the ever elusive grail his words were as if they were written in code. This is not a bad thing of course because I believe that he strives to make one think about their direction and intentions. He has been trading for a very long time and he reminds me of a character from a movie that I have recently viewed, the title "The remains of a day" Anthony Hopkins plays the ever professional butler in a pre- World War II English countryside manor. He is in charge of a large staff of under butlers and house maids. One housemaid in particular falls for him of course but his rigid exterior prevents any kind of a relationship (he regrets this in the end as the world passes him by and he is ultimately left alone).. Very good movie.
My point above is that the Diceman is rigid in his methods and not inclined to freely share every detail to every novice that comes along. Instead he gives just enough to make one think about his lot. The intelligent under butler will ponder his words and hopefully gain some perspective of things. This is actually the best gift that he can give. I respect that about him.
I am not sure as to how much about Martha Stokes he has actually read but I can see why he has come to his conclusions. When you view her trade station it is true that she has many indicators displayed, sort of like the scenario that Diceman paints above in his depiction of his trading group. Martha however if you dive deeper into her teachings makes it very clear that indicators are only a tool to uncover charts that fit ones trading style. She encourages you to create easy scans using Telechart that will aid in this search. So in this I believe that the Diceman would agree as I am sure that he has created easy scans for his uses also. I would love to see even one of them. 
My parting thoughts are that it is inevitable (and Martha concurs) that for the few that will make it in the end as a professional trader you must develop your own talent (if you indeed have it) and your own style. You must become independent and you must find your own charts and develop a management system for money, risk, and temperament.
Sorry for the long post...
Apsll.
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Joined: 3/25/2005
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Uh, Can Y'all Demonstrate All These Words of Wisdom In The Contest, Please?
Because, so far I'm not seeing what y'all are talking about here in these post.
Thanks,
MP
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Joined: 6/6/2005
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Great thread! And something I thought about for at least the last 2 years. What's the best way to teach someone how to trade? Or CAN you teach someone how to trade?
I guess that depends on how you define trading. Can you teach them the mechanics, like Booker said, of what a chart is, what a gap is, what indicators do? Yes. But I don't think that's what beginners come to people like Martha to learn. I think they come to learn "how to be a PROFITABLE trader" and I don't think it's possible to learn that from someone else. It's a switch that either does or doesn't turn on inside of the trader. And even then it seemingly can turn on and off at will.
The mechanics of trading can be learned in any of 100 books and even for free. I learned the mechanics from books like The Beginners Guide to Short Term Trading by Toni Hill. We're talking seriously rudimentary stuff. Then I went through a pretty interesting 4 year period that was VERY frustrating.
From all the interviews I have read in Market Wizards, etc., this beginning period always shows up. The struggle to learn, the frustration, the confusion, the sorting out...the MANY losing trades. When we look back we think: I wish someone would have spared me that crazy time of losses and confusion!
But is it even possible? Maybe that period IS the learning period. Maybe you have to go through it. There's a learning curve -- a weeding out process. I see it in all areas of life. Everything I do well has had that period. Surfing. Screenwriting. Sports. Anything that involves mastery of some sort.
So can Martha teach the mechanics of swing trading? Yes. But I bet we could also teach the mechanics of swing trading. I bet we could do it here...in this thread...in about 10 posts...and it wouldn't cost anything. Here, I can start with the definition found for free on the web:
SWING TRADING: (from Investopedia) A style of trading that attempts to capture gains in a stock within one to four days. Swing traders use technical analysis to look for stocks with short-term price momentum. These traders aren't interested in the fundamental or intrinsic value of stocks, but rather in their price trends and patterns.
This definition tells us we're looking for small price moves (usually 1-4 days) by finding and trading short term momentum. The momentum part is where people go crazy with 100's of indicators.
Here's a chart of a swing trade:
Trading pullbacks is probably the most common swing trading technique I have come across. Price moves up, pauses or consolidates and then breaks out again to the upside. It's that SWING back upward that swing traders look for. In sports it's called THE SWEET SPOT
And why not -- it's a great little trade. Now you have to ask...how do I find them? That's where I think all the teachers clamor to say I know how to find them best. Or my indicator cluster is the best. Or my system is the best.
From here you need to consider general market direction (and how to determine it), position size, number of stocks to buy and sell, stocks or etfs, expectancy, win loss ratio, your own tolerance for risk, etc. -- all of the things that I think really matter when trading.
But I think this is a good start.
Good luck!
David John Hall
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How many folks take guitar lessons and don't wind up sounding like:
Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Eddie VanHalen?
(however, in fairness its probably not all the teachers fault)
Thanks
diceman
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Joined: 2/5/2006
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thank god being trading successfully is much easier than playing a giutar like jimi hendrix.
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Joined: 6/6/2005
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Uh, Can Y'all Demonstrate All These Words of Wisdom In The Contest, Please?
Because, so far I'm not seeing what y'all are talking about here in these post.
Thanks,
MP
Hi MP,
From my initial inception, The Zanger challenge was supposed to be an arena to try new things, different things and to discuss ideas. Anyone who wanted to do so could and those who didn't want to didn't have to. I never intended it to be a game of chicken, of who's the better trader, of who's the fake trader and who's the real trader. It was to see if it were possible to trade a very small portfolio in a dramatic way and achieve huge results.
I've said it before, not only is it hard to post trades publicly (it's not for everyone) it's also difficult to trade such a small portfolio. But the challenge is on. In the best case scenerio this would be a challenge each of us take with ourselves. Does someone have to win and someone have to lose -- yes there is a #1 and a #23, but the quality of the exercise depends on our willingness to keep it a lighthearted experiment.
I agree it now has a life of its own, and if that includes members egging each other on, then that's what it is. I'm fine with that. But I just wanted to say that I don't think any of what any trader says on a message board means less because they aren't taking trades in a simulated challenge.
David John Hall
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As Livermore once said, trading is not a vocation for the mentally lazy. We are at the mercy of the big boys of the markets. Books can only take you so far. In markets such as this I wouldn't recommend any newbie jumping all in. Spend as much time studying the markets as you can. Then, when you finish, realize you only learned about 10% of what you need to know.
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Joined: 3/25/2005
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Hi David,
Well, of course, I feel differently about the challenge.
I see this as an opportunity for those who post here with their ideas of what works for them to not just tell us but show us. Here is their chance to make practical what they believe is a good way to pursue and trade leads that they come up with based on how they set and use their own personal criterium. I want to see these people trade the way they talk here i.e. I want them to demonstrate their theories and if they want to -- tell us what in their criteria, that they may have made statements about here in the past, prompted them to take that particular trade.
I am not seeing any of that and so I am making it known now that this is what I personally expect to see out of this challenge. That's why I invited those particular people in my invitational list. They have all posted to us in the past how they like to trade and what they like to look for. I want to see them demonstrate what they preach.
So, basically, you think this challenge should be for trying new ideas. But, I think this challenge should be used to demonstrate previously stated concepts that these posters believe in. They seem to be trying to sell of us on their ideas of how best to pursue trading and I just want them to give us examples of why this can work or should work.
Of course, everyone is just going to do what they want to do anyway -- which includes not signing up in the first place.
Remember you have novices here watching this also. What better way would there be to get one's ideas across to them than to demonstrate, in the contest, the trading ideas one espouses here on the forum?
MP
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Joined: 10/26/2005
Posts: 238
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Most traders learn what Martha Stokes teaches in one form or another, sexy indicator stuff. Most traders wash out!!!!! Hummm I know this is harsh but cut the sexy stuff. Understand how and why the market moves, I know its boring.. A Price and Volume chart is all you need. I am not picking on Martha but face it her first job is to sell her product. Not teach, teaching is incidental.
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BTW everything you need to learn can be found for free on the net, My best advice find a friend that is a good trader already and watch and study them.
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Joined: 6/6/2005
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I think this challenge should be used to demonstrate previously stated concepts that these posters believe in.
My appologies, MP. I think I sold you short. I agree with this statement completely and this is also one of the reasons I put up the challenge as well, so we can see how concepts work in the confines of a restricted portfolio because most of us are trading with a limited amount of capital. You are absolutely correct.
David John Hall
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Thanks, David. I'm glad that we are in agreement.
MP
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"I think this challenge should be used to demonstrate previously stated concepts that these posters believe in."
========================================================
Wow so Booker did blow out his real account? Thats a shame.
Apsll did lose that much in his real account.? Thats a shame.
Let me know when someone implements the trading system they've been "pushing"/"selling".
The novices may want to learn.
(since Ive seen no one even discuss a trade yet)
"Uh, Can Y'all Demonstrate All These Words of Wisdom In The Contest, Please?
Because, so far I'm not seeing what y'all are talking about here in these post."
==============================================
Uh, Well, Y'all, some may consider the info I did supply more valueable than the
zero advice you gave.
Im not exactly sure how i place a trade and prove i dont like candles.
Uh, Y'all, One other thing. Your the only one who called these "Words of Wisdom".
Someone asked me what I thought and I told them.
If you think thats selling someone a holy grail system thats your
problem not mine.
Thanks
diceman
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Ok look guys, this is not the side of this challenge that I was hoping to see. First off it was not even my view of things to use a simulator. For those that are privy to the FTV "Stock picks" thread where Diceman is contributing and doing so very well I might add. That is what I wanted to be a part of when I approached Davidjohnhall with the idea of doing the same over here.
First off I think that it would be safe to say that most here are Bulls by nature and that we have been struck down by very bad Market conditions almost from the opening gate. Yes I held the #1 spot for a while when the last of the swing trades were still working ok so that was that and now traders have turned to the highly unstable penny stocks or the inverse ETF's. They are trying to gain advantage using means that they would normally not revert to by leveraging their entire accounts on one trade... MP I see that you your self have done this by looking at your transactions.
$10,000.00 is a very small account size and considering the cost of commissions it is difficult to mange (for me it is downright awkward). But we are committed to it now so let’s just take a chill pill and get on with it.....
Thanks Apsll.
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Joined: 10/7/2004
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"I think this challenge should be used to demonstrate previously stated concepts that these posters believe in."
Let me get this straight. You want to learn in a few minutes what it cost me and others here years of study, trial and error, humiliation and loss, and all the sweat and tears it took to be profitable traders? You want to share in our severely limited pool of profit potential with no effort expended? You want to go from mediocrity to genius instantly? Even if someone told a noob a profitable system, chances are they would mess up its execution, because they haven't developed the discipline, determination and sheer brass ones it takes to trade today’s markets.
You can shop around for a while trying to find that one person with the "knowledge" and what you will find is that no one really had any better clue than you did. Take this experience and channel it into positive energy because there is no one out there with any "secret". Its good old fashioned hard work and a boat load of discipline.
I am not trying to be abrasive; just that I do not think what you want is going to happen.
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Registered User
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One last point.. Sorry
I know that we all were discussing possible rule changes at one time so if there were any to make I guess that I would like to see the accounts start at $100,000. and no limit on open positions. Then the final rule would be that you need to discuss in a few words your reasons for choosing at least two stocks that you have entered and two that you have closed. This would not be a problem "space wise" as some of the participants do not even post here (some are from my trading group). Also we are doing this I thought so that we can observe what others are doing and disscuss our trades...
Lastly I would like to choose a more stable simulator, as I know that some have had minor problems, (me included). We would start out with the current standings like for instance I am currently 44% down so I would start out with a $56,000 trading capital and so on. (I just wanted to make clear that in no way did I want to start over).
Here is one candidate that I will start testing for a new simulator. If anyone knows of a better one----
https://www.trademonster.com/Difference/Online-Paper-Trading.jsp?src=SEM_Google_PPC_PaperTrade_Other&PC=GOOG&gclid=CKjhgOLF4KECFUFM5QodRhgNKw
Just my thoughts. I will also be cool with keeping things as they are....
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Well, now things are getting good! LOL I did tell Apsll, when he initially approached me that the challenge would be tough as things tend to get heated over at the Worden camp. In the FTV thread I had an amazing time and learned more about trading in 2 months than I have in the last few years! (thank you diceman). Each trade was discussed, disected, and digested. That's not happening here.
Also, over at that thread we only traded 3 stocks at a time. One of those picks was completely random. The other two were locked in direction. 1 long no matter what, 1 short no matter what. This forced us to focus on money management and trade execution. As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter if you have 10,000 or 100,000, trading is trading. If the market is correcting, or in full on bear mode and you are a bull by nature, then there are no trades to be had. You simply don't trade. Or you continue to take your trades if you think that the direction of the indexes has no bearing on individual trades.
The nature of the challenge is a real time attempt to see if a small number of stocks are managable ala Zanger -- if it is frustrating then that experience needs to be owned, internalized and understood.
What is frustrating about it? Why is it frustrating? What can you change about your trading style to adapt or to grow? What should you keep the same? Open your mind.
Apsll, if you want this to be more like the FTV thread then make it more like the FTV thread. Begin posting charts of your trades, the reasons behind them, the money management system you used, the thought process behind it. If you are not trading because we're in a bear market, post charts of the indexes and discuss where you will begin trading again. Discuss possible set ups.
Also, in the FTV thread there were only 2-3 of us contributing. And even that was enough to let the learning begin. In fact I printed up all 104 pages of that thread to refer to.
The way I see it, in the challenge, in the market, in life, you really are only dealing with 1 person: you. It's not that the market is bad right now - it's that you or I or whoever thinks it's bad. I don't care how many veteran traders are saying that. Heck, Booker had reached 75% before he blew up. 75% in a couple months. I think on his second account Zanger hit 150% before he blew up. Then he hit 100,000%! This was when he blew up traders believs about what was possible.
I'm down 18% as well. This happens in the real market all the time. Even your 45% drawdown happens. Looking at the equity curve of many long term trend followers highlights this. The only thing to do during those times is to trade through it. I also started off with 9 losers. This happens too. It has nothing to do with account size.
All in all, if the learning experience of this challenge is to understand frustration, or the importance of market direction, or the dangers of small penny stock portfolios, or the pains of day trading then many things have been accomplished. And if someone wants to stop trading and leave the challenge then that decision should be easy, stop trading and leave the challenge. As diceman said, it's not real money. These aren't real trades!
Good luck all!
David John Hall
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Apsll, I think your trade monster simulator is fine. Also wallstreet survivor is a good simulator. You should set something up if you want to set something up. Invite people over. There's no harm. The Zanger challenge will not implode if there is another challenge offered. :) You could create the Apsll Bazillion Dollar Challenge -- a starting capital of 1 million dollars with100 stocks minimum. :) Let's just keep it light hearted and have some fun!
David John Hall
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No no David. I do not want to step on toes here. I appreciate all that you have done to put this thing in motion. You are 100% correct that it is up to each of us to make this thing what we want it to be.
I will stick with the current program. I would like this to more like what you and the Diceman have done over at FTV but it is what it is now and that is that. Thanks again for your work in bringing all this together.
By the way I am a large on the T-shirt front.....
Apsll.
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:) No worries Apsll, no toes will be stepped on.
As booker mentioned, we have 300 days left in the challenge. There are about 2 good long opps and 2 good short opps in a year. Look how quickly the landscape changed in 1 week.
David John Hall
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Ok back to the question in this thread Rick17 asked. Rick are you sure swing trading (as in 1 to 5 days from buy to sell) fits you . Or do you want to swing trade on a intraday time frame? How much time can you devote to your trading? You have to know how much time and capitol you have for trading and your risk tolerance and how psycho you are then learn a methodology and style that will define you. AB
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QUOTE (Apsll)
and now traders have turned to the highly unstable penny stocks or the inverse ETF's. They are trying to gain advantage using means that they would normally not revert to by leveraging their entire accounts on one trade... MP I see that you your self have done this by looking at your transactions.
No, Apsll.
I, for one, have not deviated from what my system tells me to trade or the direction it suggest I trade it in.
Sometimes an Etf is recommended. When that happens, I trade it along with the recommended direction to trade it -- just like I would trade any other stock long or short.
The one thing my system will not recommend trading is any penny stock.
So, if you ever see me trading a penny stock then you will know when I have deviated from my system to get a leg up.
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QUOTE (Booker)
"I think this challenge should be used to demonstrate previously stated concepts that these posters believe in."
Let me get this straight. You want to learn in a few minutes what it cost me and others here years of study, trial and error, humiliation and loss, and all the sweat and tears it took to be profitable traders? You want to share in our severely limited pool of profit potential with no effort expended? You want to go from mediocrity to genius instantly?
No, Booker, you didn't get it straight.
I don't need to learn those things from you.
I already have a system that works for me most of the time.
So, as far as I am concerned, I have already gone from mediocrity to genius.
Systems of any kind, on occassion can and do stop working the way they normally would in which cases, I am able to adjust my system to get me back on track. So, no perfect system, as far as I can tell ever remains perfect but it can be tweaked to get it back on the perfect track for a while.
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Diceman,
When the experienced traders post their trading ideas on this forum, are these not "Words of Wisdom"?
Are they not trying to convey to everyone what has worked for them in the past?
And as far as my posts are concerned, I have posted here in the past how I like to trade.
Very few people showed any interest so I decided not to waste my time with my own "Words of Wisdom".
Thanks,
MP
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and now traders have turned to the highly unstable penny stocks
Once again, I will say that I have been trading penny stocks for well over a year now. There are ways and means to trade anything that matches your personality and if you use the proper money management. So penny stocks down't work for you, that doesn't mean they don't work. It is massively important to keep our minds open to anything and everything. If someone tells me that something they are doing works I want to know how, I don't want to dissmiss it. Dismission is deadly.
Here's my performance chart from Tickerspy.com.
Note the drawdowns. They happen like clockwork. Note the benefits of trading through drawdowns as equity returns with market cycles. Not the index beating returns. You can see every trade I have made there. My real portfolio trades are on my computer at work. The performace matches and I will post all of my 2009 trades on Monday. There wasn't a single stock over $1. You can go to FTV and view the trade picks thread where most of the stocks were sub $1 besides shorts where I discovered that 1) I don't like them and 2 if I have to trade short (in the thread we did have to) then stocks below $10 that have experienced 1 month gains of greater than 100% make great shorting ops if you wait for the right patterns.
Just thought I would go deeper into the topic.
MP,
Did you get burned badly by penny stocks at some point? Can you go deeper into why you think they are a bad idea?
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Howdy MP..
No it was not about the pennies MP. I do know your feelings on that subject and have for years now. It was you my friend that made me see the light on that one. My observation was in reference to the trade you made on SLG back in early May. You went all in on this one and sold 22 minutes latter for a loss. No big deal to me but knowing you like I do then I doubt very much you would actually make a real trade like that.
I was one of the ones that did appreciate your words of wisdom. I still look for those opportunities when the markets are going my way...
As for Diceman; you may be barking up the wrong tree on that one as I do not recall him sharing out-right strategies on this forum. The words of wisdom that I refer to in reference to the Diceman are more about the psychology and perspective one should be in tune with.
I say drop all this bickering and just treat the simulator as you wish because in 298 more days there is only going to be one name at the top.
We all know the reality of the situation and I think that most have proved that they would not really take such chances with real money. It is sad but Bigblock was right about that.....
There now, we can all be friends again.....
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 426
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QUOTE (davidjohnhall) and now traders have turned to the highly unstable penny stocks
Once again, I will say that I have been trading penny stocks for well over a year now. There are ways and means to trade anything that matches your personality and if you use the proper money management. So penny stocks down't work for you, that doesn't mean they don't work. It is massively important to keep our minds open to anything and everything. If someone tells me that something they are doing works I want to know how, I don't want to dissmiss it. Dismission is deadly.
Here's my performance chart from Tickerspy.com.
Note the drawdowns. They happen like clockwork. Note the benefits of trading through drawdowns as equity returns with market cycles. Not the index beating returns. You can see every trade I have made there. My real portfolio trades are on my computer at work. The performace matches and I will post all of my 2009 trades on Monday. There wasn't a single stock over $1. You can go to FTV and view the trade picks thread where most of the stocks were sub $1 besides shorts where I discovered that 1) I don't like them and 2 if I have to trade short (in the thread we did have to) then stocks below $10 that have experienced 1 month gains of greater than 100% make great shorting ops if you wait for the right patterns.
Just thought I would go deeper into the topic.
MP,
Did you get burned badly by penny stocks at some point? Can you go deeper into why you think they are a bad idea?
David, I can see where penny stocks are very profitable. I have not traded penny stocks until this challenge. And if I was going to do it in the real world, I would not use margin. I would diversify in different markets and use money management to control risk. I would spread out into maybe 10 or more stocks at a time to prevent blow-outs. Now I understand why Tobydad likes the penny stocks so well.
Nice chart BTW.
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Registered User
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 1,157
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Thanks Booker,
Ben made a comment about having to spread a wide net to catch the penny stocks that move and at the time I didn't believe him and that's partially why I forced myself only to trade 4 at a time max here, but I am beginning to see that he is correct. No harm in trying though. I normally trade 10 at a time and as many as 20. I'm not saying that would work for everyone -- and definitely not trying to sell anyone on the idea, just sharing what has worked for me. And yes, Tobydad gave me the inspiration to move forward and actually trade the pennies live so I owe him a big thank you.
I'd be interested to see what you come up with Booker. As always I will always share here.
David John Hall
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Registered User
Joined: 3/25/2005
Posts: 864
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QUOTE (Apsll)
Howdy MP..
No it was not about the pennies MP. I do know your feelings on that subject and have for years now. It was you my friend that made me see the light on that one. My observation was in reference to the trade you made on SLG back in early May. You went all in on this one and sold 22 minutes latter for a loss. No big deal to me but knowing you like I do then I doubt very much you would actually make a real trade like that.
Oh Yeah, that was the day I found out early in the contest, that it's very difficult to day trade with this VSE system. I did a market order. It gave me a very bad entry price on it's delay and I was looking for a way out and it gave me another very bad exit price on delay. Since then I have tried not to day trade in this contest because the VSE system will screw you with it's delayed entry prices.
I was really having a hard time with the VSE system on Friday trading IOC. I was placing limits, cancelling limits, placing markets and I even thought it was allowing me to cancel markets , so I was doing that too trying get a good price out of the VSE system. And, at some point during all this fanagling, I made a mistake and ended up shorting another 100 shares when I was really trying to buy to cover 100 of my 300 shares. So, I ended up with 400 shares on a short for IOC.
The VSE system is very trouble some for exit timing also.
I'm still trying figure out how use this thing to my advantage.
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