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Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 2,126
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First: A Volume climax doesn't make the inmediate reversal of a trend. In fact climatic volume usually brings more of the same at a lesser degree for an unknown time span. So a first sign of climax in volume is never the first sign to initiate a trade.
Would you really want to be in a losing position for days or months before it may change?
Second: The climatic volume doesn't tell you in any way who exchanged shares, why they exchanged the shares, or when the exchanging is finished. By exchanging I refer to the action of selling or buying shares with the purpose of accumulating or distributing.
Third: Volume and price can be easily manupulated by the allowed market operators. Per example a stock can exchaged a huge amount of shrs any particular day with a very thin spread in price intending to represent an accumulating action, when by the end of the day the stock can close below showing as an EOD of distribution. Yes charts can be painted to disguise actions.
Fourth: VSA is never is going to be able to find out the reasons behind the distribution or accumulation of a stock at any stage. You will be able to tell yourself whatever reasons you like to especulate, but the truth is that you will be doing nothing else but assuming.
Institutions and retail traders have all kind of reason for buying or selling a stock, and they are not always related to market actions.
Fifth: There is no reason, or proof that says that VSA is superior to any other trading system including flipping a coin. If this system was superior in any ways then by demand it wouldn't be superior anymore.
I should add that the system is superior in the sense of collecting profits for their creators, who by overpricing a flaw system make look as something more sophisticated and complex.
Sixth: A product that folks around here can't even figure out themselve - tells me is complicated in nature to cover its own flaw. In the markets simplicity is king. Complexity must be left at the algorithm level, but at the user level things must be simple and easy.
I don't know of any algorithm that reads the mind of folks, obviously this is really a gimmick system.
I have been trading the markets since 1992, as a daytrader since 1998, and I have found suscess in the most simple but difficult things and comcepts to accept.
I have said plenty of time that the market is made by you. You must accept yourself first of all, then you must understand the inter-relation of the markets at a global level, then you must learn your resources, and then you must make peace with yourself to let the process become.
It is not about technical analysis, and system - those are just tools. What would a mechanic do with a screw driver if he didn't really know anything about cars. You can bet that he would probably screw the problem a little more than it already was.
I found humorous the following comment in Operandi's topic title "Smart Money - what is it exactly? It probably isn't institutional trading"
it said "My brother in law succeeds (he is a very wealthy guy) as a broker by his performance against VWAP - not his ability to operate smart money strategies. He actually didn't have a clue about the "smart money" strategies I was describing. He has UK institutional customers trading in UK, European and US markets."
I am sure you get the drift by now. Don't let the bad marketing get to you and your money. Other fools around here have taken a bite of that and are hooked. It is better to be free and richer.
Take care.
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Registered User
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 1,157
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Bigblock,
From what I understand, you sell trading systems as well. Whatever the team over at Tradeguider is doing is the same thing that you are doing. You are marketing a system that works for you on a universal level to other traders who you hope will find success with it. That is no different whatsoever from the well marketed Tradeguider. It seems they have a little money behind them and have created a product that they distribute well and agressively. Isn't that what business is all about? And from what I have seen (I don't use it) it isn't so much of a complete sham because the methods they teach are profitable.
You are correcty in your statement that the market and propper trading lies with the individual. only the individual can cure themselves of over trading, of emotional trading, of chasing prices and looking for the holy grail...but once that is done you are left with a trader finding a method of trading that suits their personality.
If someone goes to your website and reviews your promotional material (I have) and thinks, hey, this guy's system looks good. I like his example trades, he seems to know what he's talking about, and I seem to relate in some way to this style of trading, I think I'll buy his product.
You certainly aren't giving it away. So you're looking to gain profit. you're an experienced trader who believes he can distill the practice of trading down to a level that is easily digestable by the trading public.
How is this different from what Tom williams has done? He was a professional trader. Gained knowledge and a certain skill set and is bringing it to the public. Does he have a higher price point than you? Usually, the price of these systems is a direct reflection of what the public is willing to pay. And why not. Everywhere we look in our society the same things are being sold at different prices.
So I'm not sure what the quabble is about. Is it because there are members of this Board that are enthusiastic about VSA? Does that not appeal to you -- their enthusiasm? Do you find it naive? Or simple? I would hardly call myself a VSA trader. I trade what works for me based on what I have noticed in the market over a few years. But realize, when you say things like, You can't buy into a decline on heavy volume, at least for me, this statement is incorrect, because it makes money for me. Surely, if it didn't, I would stop. Because, like us all, I don't like losing money. So whatever i have learned and internalized from looking at hundreds of gaps and trading them with success and failure and refining and tweaking and now getting it right...works.
Now, as far as traders finding the market in themselves, I trully, 100% believe that APSLL has done that. Most everyone here has done that. What they are looking for is nothing more than an opportunity to further develope their skill sets with systems that match their personalities. Didn't Apsll's first trade pay for the Tradeguider course?
Apsll has noticed that VSA highlights trades that match his personality and that Tradeguider easily finds them for him. This is the equivolent of a farmer using a new turbine (or whatever they're called) because it cuts his crops better. These are all tools of the trade.
Aren't they?
David John Hall
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Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Very well stated David, I am not responding to this thread to fight with BigBlock I promised that I would put an end to that and I will. But on a profesional level I feel that I need to respond.
BigBlocks explanation of VSA is not even close to the proper mechanics of how VSA trading works. Yes I am still learning, but I know enough about the subject matter to discuss it intelligently. VSA does not tell you to buy the stock when big investors are accumulating the stock on those heavy volume sell-off days. These signs that big money are accumulating are supposed to be a flag that tells you that the stock is changing hands, from weak (the panic sellers) to strong (the big investors that are now buying the stock at bargain prices).
If you look at past charts then look at them when they all bottomed, notice that one thing that most have in common? It is that volume levels were high and then price either leveled out or climed a bit. Now latter in that chart you will see that weeks or a few months will go by and the lows for that bottom will be tested. The volume levels at this test are important if they are very low then you will notice the the reason for this is that supply is low and demand is high so price will rise. If the volume is high during this testing of the lows then you might just see that low breached with more down side action. Do not take my word for it or BigBlocks, go back to July - September of 2006 You will find a lot of bottoming stocks during this time frame. Test my theory out and see for yourself. In fact David if you could do some kind of test on this then I would appreciate that.
Lastely BigBlock is not attacking VSA he is intelligent enough to know that he should not be condemning somthing he knows very little about. This is more about his quest to discredit me. I have chosen to stop pushing his buttons and putting him on the defensive. So although he will get his last jabs in at me un-answered (I deserve it) he will soon calm down I hope.
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Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 7
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Bigblock. , have to say ill find out what you are trying to peddle and put it on my ignore list. I find VSA amongst other things useful. I have also not found many professionals willing to entirely rib somebody elses system entirely in favour of their own , its called Ego mate.
David C Grant.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Davidc, If you are who I think you are, then welcom. Now I have two friends on this board named David. You will find this forum a little more lively than the other one.
Do you think that Hayseed and Bigblock would get along?
Again welcome, If you need help with Telechart then Myself, Davidjohnhall, Diceman and many more will be glad to share and help.
Apsll.
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Registered User
Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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Wow BigBlock sounds really really scared!!!!
When he used to bash Jim Cramer I used to say he had:
"Cramer envy".
I may have to change that to "VSA envy".
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Realize that many moons ago I got into a "discussion" of
Investors Business daily. with BigBlock. (he thought it was a
rag) So I think that tells your where he's coming from.
What's so funny is people are just asking questions and investigating.
I've seen no one declare VSA the holy grail.
Obviously BigBlock doesn't understand the concept of freedom.
(what a surprise)
"I have also not found many professionals willing to entirely rib
somebody elses system entirely in favour of their own , its called
Ego mate."
Exactly davidcftv it so obvious its ridiculous.
Thanks
diceman
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Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 2,181
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And so we're all spending time on this for what reason?
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Joined: 2/21/2007
Posts: 797
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I thought that it's all about finding a simplistic system with a few different parameters, that works well, and most importantly fits one's personality. thanks to alot of nice people submitting their ideas on T.C. and alot of studying and practicing and winning and losing, I found mine, at least for now. everyone to their own and to helping us all.
johnc
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Registered User
Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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"And so we're all spending time on this for what reason?"
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The simple answer would be: Because BigBlock is obsessed with
trashing all that is not Bigblock.
Thanks
diceman
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 2,181
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With all due respect, Diceman, a simpler answer would be not to answer.
I've posted this before, here's the approach I suggest:
Apsll: "I've found VSA to be very interesting because of this, this and this."
Davidjohnhall: "Very interesting, Apsll. Have you ever thought about such and such?"
Bigblock: "Apsll doesn't have a very nice haircut and he doesn't know a bid from an ask."
Diceman: "David and Apsll, well I believe VSA has merit in this context but I'm still not sure about this. What if this or that happened whenever stochastics hit this?"
Bigblock: "I think Diceman blows his nose without a handkerchief. And Apsll couldn't trade his way out of a wet paper bag."
Apsll: "Diceman, you make a good point. Davidjohnhall said once that this or that was true about volume movements and I've been researching that>
Bigblock: "Apsll kisses frogs. And his sister doesn't wash her hair. And none of you know even how to log on to your online broker"
Davidjohnhall: "What about this, I've done some backtesting on VSA and ...."
Come on folks. This shouldn't be that hard.
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Registered User
Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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Well realize tobydad. Slowly but surely it is happening.
When one shows no respect. Ultimately they get no respect.
Look at the response of others to BigBlock.
Thanks
diceman
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Joined: 4/18/2005
Posts: 4,090
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Tobydad
I know.. I know.
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Registered User
Joined: 10/7/2004
Posts: 2,126
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You think that a system that sells for that kind of $$ would be a little more down to the point - wouldn't you?
If Apsll claimed that his system was comprised ot lets say 2 moving averages that give a signal as they cross, or of RSI which give signa when it hits 100, or whatever. Then I would have no problem. But come on not even the guy can understand what he just bought. Just the fact that it is that hard to use is part of the flaw. Not to mention that too many things are subject to the user interpretation.
It appears to me strange that noone alluded about my coments about VSA, but that instead deviated from the topic to talk about the way I am hitting the topic, or his promoter, or the personal thing.
DavidJohh my business is no different that what the folks down in VSA are doing, BUT the product sure is. For the price they sell their product I would expect something a little more useful. But sure if it works for you go ahead. I always say that I am free to post my opinions on any product or topic as an advice, you the user at your end make your own decisions regardless of my opinions.
You must agree with me that diference of opinions make for great debates.
In is my sense that Apsll think that it is only his way or no way - therefore the conflict. I am not the groupy type, and I don't easily give up. This may be a long haul until we come to senses or I am drop from the forum, which I know he is hoping for.
That being the case I consider it your loss, not mine.
David Grant I have no idea who you are, neither do I care, but I really dislike your comment about me trying to favour my system. I do not see anything connected to my system in this topic, do you? I am assuming that comment is an ellusive fabrication of your imagination. Like I said, if the system was worth it in my opinion I would say so. Just like Diceman said I reacted similarly about IBD, and that is because I used and that is simply my opinion about the product.
I am not sure when I said that about IBD, but it is very possible that my system wasn't even implemented at a public level yet. So there you have it - I am not trying to favour anything. I hope I am clear.
Diceman, I still feel the same way about Cramer Crap. It is my opinion he is not worht anyone's time. It hasn't changed. And as for "envy" you must be kidding me, right??
I express my opinions freely as I think about them and they are truth. I told you about IBD many moons when my system wasn't even available yet - so what is so obvious? What is so ridiculous?
That is all you have to contribute to this topic? I thought you were a little more articulate and intelectual; I guess not.
It seems you lately come following my foot steps - be careful.
Tobydad, you are correct, but then you would wonder what if I would. Some may take this as agression, others may take it as dialogue. It is not my choice.
I know that all of you have read my comments on VSA, and that it had impact. Why don't you try to disprove them instead of concentrating on my approach, or drama.
Prove me wrong. Proof my comments wrong.
Show me that VSA is more efficient that lets say a standard MACD system per example.
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Registered User
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 1,157
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tobydad,
That was very funny. Thanks for lightening things up. Point taken.
David John Hall
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Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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"With all due respect, Diceman, a simpler answer would be not to answer."
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Well tobydad in light of your response I may have to change it to:
BigBlock is BigBlock and Apsll is Apsll.
(don't think many would argue with that)
Thanks
diceman
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Joined: 2/5/2006
Posts: 1,148
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vsa isn't necessarily flawed, it just that its a piece of the puzzle, rather than the whole puzzle.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Diceman, no I am not I am Sir "As Pile Of Lagger Lier"
Now you have got me paranoid with your coment. I was under the impression that you liked me?
No not that way...
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Registered User
Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 7
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Bigblock, You are correct in that you didnt say your system is better but its generally the foundation of such bitter argument that one believes their version of the market to be the only truth, so yes i extrapulated incorrectly.. perhaps.... I have been a TC user for some time but didnt post in the forum ( Apsll I am who you think i am ) when visiting it last night for the first time in days , perhaps it was just bad luck when randomly clicking around to come across several argumentative posts you have made. If your not generally argumentative on this board then you have my apologies. Specifically though , and I dont care how long or successful anybody is , nobody in my view is qualified to say a widely used system is rubbish , which is i think ( forgive me if im wrong ) the main thrust of your post. The best traders , especially when it comes to passing it on are the ones who recognise they know but a little. But hey , what do i know...
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