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Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 889
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1. trading is not a group sport...it's just one and his capital.
2. Being "right" or winning an argument in this forum does not add money to one's trading account. If you've gotten to a point where you know EVERYTHING, why are you still posting here? You should be living on your own island, or either generously sprinkling your gems of wisdom upon all of us for a reasonable monthly fee.
3. It's never a good idea to buy someone else's stock picks. You never know the rationale, entry, exit, or hold criteria. (see #1) It's never a good idea to adopt someone's market view as your own. Many market gurus hold diametrically opposing opinions. Both cannot be right. One can be wrong, but at least be wrong on your own free will, and when you are, recognize that fact and learn from it...otherwise you're doomed to repeat it.
4. Don't imagine what can happen in any situation, spend every free moment studying past winners of your preferred trade setup to know what can happen along the way. One of the first things an artist learns is to stop drawing the image in their mind, and to draw the image they are actually looking at. As a trader, it's all too easy to imagine what SHOULD happen, without a grounded base of knowledge of what HAS happened with similar trades.
I'm sure more wisdom will come to mind...please add to this thread if you are so inspired.
Cheers,
B2k9
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Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 43
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Just another way for traders make money by watching the chat, forum members, but they have to know who have most wins and honest.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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I do not think that anyone knows everything.
I used to be of the notion that why would someone post here that was a millionare? I am a now a millionare and I post here. WSE is a multi millionare and he posts here, we both post on multiple forums. I know that Aiki14 is not only a multi millionare but has a video series the likes that WSE is starting up and he posts on trading forums; some just like to share. Trading is a passion and posting is part of that.
Winning arguments is not what it is about, I think that it is in some casses just getting your point across. words can be miss-interpreted or even the delivery can be miss-handled but no harm is intended I think. We are all just traders and we have our own ways that make money so we tend to feel a passion for our abilities. Very few make it to this club so ego's can get stepped on and that is inevitable.
Just "thinking out loud"....
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Joined: 5/11/2009
Posts: 120
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Ben, what you say about traders is very true, but what about the trolls that pretends to be traders? We have one on this board that runs rampant at times.
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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 7
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QUOTE (ben2k9) 1. trading is not a group sport...it's just one and his capital.
2. Being "right" or winning an argument in this forum does not add money to one's trading account. If you've gotten to a point where you know EVERYTHING, why are you still posting here? You should be living on your own island, or either generously sprinkling your gems of wisdom upon all of us for a reasonable monthly fee.
3. It's never a good idea to buy someone else's stock picks. You never know the rationale, entry, exit, or hold criteria. (see #1) It's never a good idea to adopt someone's market view as your own. Many market gurus hold diametrically opposing opinions. Both cannot be right. One can be wrong, but at least be wrong on your own free will, and when you are, recognize that fact and learn from it...otherwise you're doomed to repeat it.
4. Don't imagine what can happen in any situation, spend every free moment studying past winners of your preferred trade setup to know what can happen along the way. One of the first things an artist learns is to stop drawing the image in their mind, and to draw the image they are actually looking at. As a trader, it's all too easy to imagine what SHOULD happen, without a grounded base of knowledge of what HAS happened with similar trades.
I'm sure more wisdom will come to mind...please add to this thread if you are so inspired.
Cheers,
B2k9
Dear Ben, I strongly agree with you.
As for the little browsing that I have been doing around here, I think I also agree with tonson10.
You know, for sucessful trading you don't have to know everything - you just have to know yourself..
You keep up the good work, and keep on bringing the good questions, and comments - that is what makes a good forum.
To make a good trader, the trader has to make himself out in the markets - not in a forum.
Thanks in advance
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Welcome back Bigblock. I also see that Ben has a new alias. Things would get interesting around here if I had the time....
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Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 889
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Apsll,
I don't know what you mean about me having a new alias. I am ben2k9 here. That is it.
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Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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"You know, for sucessful trading you don't have to know everything - you just have to know yourself.."
------------------------------------------
That's a good philosophy Isidur.
To bad they don't stick with it.
The problem is those who decide not to know everything and
only know themselves should also not become "experts" on
everything else.
They judge what doesn't work. What cant be done and become
experts on what they don't know or use.
There's a big difference between one who goes into a restaurant
and orders a chicken dish because that's what they like and one who
orders a chicken dish but must denounce those who order pork, beef,
lamb, and fish because they didn't order chicken.
That's when they show us their "know yourself" philosophy is just pretend.
Thanks
diceman
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Registered User
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 1,157
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Great points Ben!
I was just thinking something similar this morning. I think the moment you "know everything" in any endeavor it's time to quit. The end (usually in the form of "everything" showing you that you don't know it as well as you thought you did) is near.
I like trading. Like posting. Like the most when someone else's idea shows me something new about my ideas -- even if that means my ideas are 100% invalidated. Also love the ah-ha moments that come along the way. Love learning. (Wow -- there's a lot of love in there).
Another thought I had about trading this morning was this: If you ever are not sure which road to take in the maket, ask yourself this: what would be hardest thing for me to do at this moment? The answer to that question is probably the thing you should do. I believe we humans like the easy route. We like comfort and we flee from pain. Sometimes that pain is the discomfort we feel while watching profits rise. It might be to take a stop-loss. It might be to close after a huge gap down. It might be to sell into strength. As we continue to take the difficult route over time it becomes a little easier. And if 95% of the people are losing money -- chosing to do what they cannot do -- no matter the level of discomfort -- might just create something amazing.
And yes, by all means, know yourself. But really go there. Do what Jung did -- lock yourself in a room for a week and let it all come out -- the fears, the scars, the loves, the hates -- find the real you in there -- not just the "I'm a procrastinator" type easy admissions, but really get to the heart of it. Sometimes losing a lot of money does this in the market. I know I have seen some very ugly sides of myself when trades aren't working out -- when discussions aren't working out -- when the truth is the last thing i wanted to see.
Regarding millionares who post I think that's great. Congratulations to them. I don't think a million dollars is the only measure of success. If it's your goal to reach a million dollars then to reach a million dollars definitely means success. Your goal might just be to replace income. You goal might be to have fun. your goal might be to earn your car payment every month. Your goal might be to reach 100 million dollars. My goal is growth + serenity and peace and love (I know, I'm a hippy). There was a story about a professional poker player who used to go to a game every friday night and scoop up wads of cash from a doctor who used to join in. The pro couldn't believe how much this doctor would just loose and one night he asked another player -- if this guy is so bad, why the heck does he come here? What a waste of money. His fellow player answerd that the doctor came to the game because he loved poker and after a night of losing patients in the emergency room, of watching human lives take their last breaths, the poker game eased his mind and his soul. So you see, we all have our different reasons for sitting down at the table.
Regarding unsuccessful traders posing as successful traders -- that's great as well. They must be getting something from the experience and if that's their reward then I am happy for them. They might be lying but they are mostly lying to themselves Then who do you know who to listen to and who not to listen to -- easy -- as Ben said, you listen to no one or, I might even add, you listen to everyone. That way -- if someone really is successful you just might get a good idea about trading.
But, for the most part, the market isn't about listening -- it's about action. And you learn by constantly reexamining your own actions and the results of those actions and you, hopefully, move forward.
Anyway, great thread.
David John Hall
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Joined: 2/5/2006
Posts: 1,148
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QUOTE (davidjohnhall) Great points Ben!
Regarding millionares who post I think that's great. Congratulations to them. I don't think a million dollars is the only measure of success.
David John Hall
if only a million bucks today was worth what a million bucks was 25 years ago.
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Joined: 12/18/2008
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i agree... plus not everyone made their money from trading and others were just born with it :P
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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 7
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QUOTE (diceman)
"You know, for sucessful trading you don't have to know everything - you just have to know yourself.."
------------------------------------------
That's a good philosophy Isidur.
To bad they don't stick with it.
The problem is those who decide not to know everything and
only know themselves should also not become "experts" on
everything else.
They judge what doesn't work. What cant be done and become
experts on what they don't know or use.
There's a big difference between one who goes into a restaurant
and orders a chicken dish because that's what they like and one who
orders a chicken dish but must denounce those who order pork, beef,
lamb, and fish because they didn't order chicken.
That's when they show us their "know yourself" philosophy is just pretend.
Thanks
diceman
Sir, I think I was clear on the fact that you don't have to know everything, and that the important think to be more sucessful in trading is to know yourself.I am not sure what you imply by your comments below, but I think it is clear that you carry much contradiction in your statement.If you don't know everything, how can you possibly become an expert on everything else? Or do you mean an ignorant expert?Furthermore, what doesn't work usually is not what doesn't work - the user is what doesn't work - of course discounting extreme idiotic cases. How easy is it to get into a trade for the average Joe? Unless he / she has been burned before by the marketst (the burned can't usually make up its mind - just simply scared).I would say - very easy. But how easy is it to get out. What is the more important part of the "getting out"? At the end -who or what makes the decision to make or give a profit?In the case of your restaurant you are comparing oranges to apples - it absolutely has nothing to do with the matter being discussed.You can search, scan, sort, and do all the things you may think will help get that winner - at the end what matters is your decision about when to enter, and exit that trade - emphasizing on the exit.The mind is a powerful thing - but many times deceiving. Look at all of those who see the shades of Bigblock everywhere they turn. What you truly believe is usually your destiny. Is what you believe the real truth or the reflection of a shadow you fear?Thanks in advanced.Isidur.
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Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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Keep arguing. You prove my point and destroy your own
better than I ever could.
What BigBlock never realized was that he hurt his stature more than
anyone here ever could.
The classic example of: Give someone enough rope (well you know the rest).
Tragic what weakness can do.
Thanks
diceman
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Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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QUOTE (diceman)
They judge what doesn't work. What cant be done and become
experts on what they don't know or use.
There's a big difference between one who goes into a restaurant
and orders a chicken dish because that's what they like and one who
orders a chicken dish but must denounce those who order pork, beef,
lamb, and fish because they didn't order chicken.
That's when they show us their "know yourself" philosophy is just pretend.
Thanks
diceman
Diceman, I too feel the need to coment on your statements. Now you and I have had some minor friction over this issue. There is no harm in the suggesting that in ones opinion that a concept does not work for a given trader and that they have worked with the concept and just connot get it to make sense to them. I noticed that the "Demark" topic has lost its momentum. I might not like counting bars (Demark) or counting waves (Elliot) and I also migh not believe in their merrit; I might even give my opinion on such things. These coments when delivered can just be one persons observations and their opnions. That does not have to be interpreted to mean that they think that chicken is the only kosher meat. It is not a decloration of expert testimony to give ones opinion on what they think might work and in what Market conditions they might not work in. The best example I can give is that (IMO) during times of lengthy sideways price action that moving averages are rendered useless. That does not mean that I am suggesting to never use them.
I have found over the years that some of your analogies are painted using to broad of strokes.
Again just an opinion..
Apsll.
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Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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Well the mistake you make is thinking the opinion is about the
subject at hand. Even though something is being talked about
the real argument is about you.
You see are we really arguing Demark? Are we really arguing IBD?
I don't think so. The truth of the argument is somewhere else.
Remember the world gets very, very simple if nothing works.
Stuff like: "I'm just giving my opinion" is what people just hide behind.
Also what's missed is the holes in the logic.
If everything is null and void how do I tell you anything about anything?
A few weeks ago you said this:
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"I can not think of one thing right now that could fuel the next Bull Market, can you? In the future I think that we will..Bio Tech, Alternat Energy....But what is there for right now??
I think that we just might have a return to the kind of markets that we saw from 1964 to 1982. I mean what else is there I mean Ben might be right for the short term. We could see 1200 in the DOW and then drop back down to 6000. We could have us another trading range here for a very long time until the next big leap in technology shows up. I mean is that a Bull Market or a Bear Market when the market trades in these wide ranges for Decades?
Zoom in on the monthly chart to the early to mid 70's. Notice we had a top in 1972 and then a bottom in 1974 and then in 1976 just imagin all those traders that thought that a new high was on the way along with a new Bull Market... Must have been a lot of suicides that year. I am sure that the gun companies prospered.
It looks like to me that we just might be in late 1975 right now; what a pretty head and shoulders.
My game plan is to do some research and figure out how to trade this kind of market.
I Would love to get as much feed back as possible on my theories here. I am not demanding that I am right. But I would like some help from my fellow posters on what you guys think and what you plan do do about it..."
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How am I supposed to answer this? I would have told you to get long in
early March. (but you were already in this argument with Ben. you
had already dismissed this)
You see we cant have a world where all opinions but my own are void
but I would like your opinion anyway on this.
You see what's missed is the real trader doesn't have to hide what he is.
The real man doesn't have to hide what he knows or doesnt.
A few months back davidjohnhall came in with a post that said (in effect)
"I get it diceman. You can trade long in a bear market."
A few months back I came in with a post about tobydad stocks saying:
"I get it. I understand".
You will find very little of that around here. Too many are too busy pretending to
know everything about everything.
Since we have the geniuses of trade there is no requirement to ever say:
"I get it".
You see this is all very complex. You can give opinions all day long.
If they are informed opinions? If they are truthful opinions? If you really
have an open mind and are looking to be convinced?
What are the agendas behind your opinion?
Well there's the rub.
You see all the things you have opinions about aren't just about them.
Its also about you.
I have never spent my time telling folks this doesn't work, that doesn't
work. You cant use Stoc. You cant use MACD. You cant use moving
averages. I spend my time telling you what I think works. If you don't
believe that. I spend my time helping you do what you want.
You see when I talk about trading long in a bear and a "BigBlock"
tells me "no". To me its not really about me. (I already know this
and I'm going to do it no matter what BigBlock says)
To me its about the davidjohnhall in the backround.
You see we have to decide what's going to rule the day?
Ego?
Pride?
Opinion?
Fear?
Ignorence?
or
Open-mindedness?
Facts?
Truth?
Knowledge?
Learning?
If we let silly, weak, empty, arguments stand we are not really
doing anyone any good.
Thanks
diceman
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Diceman it would be nice if you had your facts straight. In March I was daytrading the ETF's invers and the Bulls. I think that Ben was also. I found a thread where he mentions this back then. Him and I had a brief disagreement about "Gun Control" but as I recall our disagreements about the markets first started in June or so when I felt that the technicals were breaking down. I also do not recall you telling anyone to go long in March. There was a thread that you and I were discussing some long and short candidates back in mid March. It was the "Welcome back Diceman" thread that I started.
In April and May I was away on vacation for a couple of weeks but then started to swing trade (long) on the daily charts. It was in June that I first got worried about the technicals. All this can be backed up by my trading group that some of them are also members here.
You like to give long speaches about weak empty arguments and yet you participate. My opinions about IBD & Demark were about IBD & Demark they were not about me trying to prove them wrong. I subscribed to IBD for many years and formed an "opnion". It was based on my experiences. That is why I like to let folks know in many of my posts that I state only my opinion; I do this so that they understand that I am not stating that it is a fact that IBD does not work and that they might want to try it for themselves. I once had a discussion here with someone that agreed with my opinions on IBD... I also know that Fpetry is of the opposite opinion and has nothing but good things to say about IBD. I have never told him that he was wrong.
I am very opinionated, I think that everyone here knows that much, but I am also very open minded. I have learned many things from good traders on this forum. I have forged long friendships with many of them. You keep obssesing about inaccurate traits only a few here atribute to me. I have never said this does not and cannot work. I have said that in my "opinion" there might be better ways. I do not see giving opinions as a weakness or a deflection of agenda. I see it as leaving room for alternate opinions. I remember the days when Tobydad and myself were chalenged for trading lower price stocks. You were one of those that opposed us. You never argued about it but you did make it clear that you saw no merrit in it. Ok so now you had as David would put it " an oh my god" revelation that maybe there is now merrit to this after all, well good for you. I have had many of those moments. I think that is how a trader grows and learns.
I will just close this out by saying that you misjudge my intentions when I post my feelings on a subject matter. It was you I believe that said we should not all agree with each other, that opposing ideas are the spice of debate. Well that is what I do. I like to debate and discuss. I do not think that my opinions are the only viable ones, I have never thought that way.
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Joined: 12/2/2004
Posts: 1,775
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QUOTE (Apsll) I once had a discussion here with someone that agreed with my opinions on IBD... I also know that Fpetry is of the opposite opinion and has nothing but good things to say about IBD. I have never told him that he was wrong.
Hi Apsll. No harm but you are off base on what my opinion is of IBD. I've posted numerous times on IBD methods and techniques and have found several of IBD's teachings to be valuable and insightful, and thus I have implemented some of the IBD canslim method into my personal trading style. I have posted more than once that I am not a slave to canslim and that my personal style incorporates only a portion of the IBD method. Several times I have pointed out the weaknesses of IBD, most recently how strictly adhering to the IBD method would have kept one out of great gains since the March rally; reason being many stocks that had great rallies had become single digit stocks and were trading very far from down from recent highs. For example the IBD/canslim method strongly advises against trading stocks under $15; the great decline had reduced so many stocks to single digit that there was an unusual number of single digits that formed nice lateral bottom bases that went on to produce outstanding gains in short order. That same decline also devastated the fundamentals of many of those same stocks that made great gains, but again the the IBD method eliminated many of them from the start because of that. At the same time canslim/IBD offers outstanding rules and specific criteria for base types and money management/risk that its teachings will always be first rate imo.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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How are you Fpetry?
Sorry that I missrepresented your opinions on IBD. I remember back before I found Telechart, I was (in the final days of using IBD) just useing the stocks under $10 section and looking for the A's & B's along with the above 80's in their rating system. I would then use Bigcharts and go through each chart one by one. So you could say that I too found value in the papper.
Diceman is just doing what he does when he does not like someone. I should take Traderm's advice and just ignor him...
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Registered User
Joined: 1/28/2005
Posts: 6,049
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Yeah BigBlock is opinionated too.
That makes it right?
I didn't think I had to spell out the obvious.
I'm talking about this:
How are we allowed to exchange ideas. When we are not allowed to have
any?
diceman
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Diceman, I am very familiar with the thread. I was there remember? Show me where I say that I am right and everyone else is wrong. Show me where I say that Bens opinion is not just as valid as mine. It did get a little heated in some areas because he used the term "proof"......
I simply stated that he could not prove that we are in a Bull Market. This all started because I did not like your post that you made about not being able to play golf as well as "Tiger Woods" so it must be the golf clubs fault....
Before that we were friends you and I.
I have the right to discuss my opinions. Bigblock did not discuss opinions, he talked down to us and not with us; there is a difference and you know it. Will you please stop with your baseless babbling about me not respecting others opinions. I thought that you were above all this. I guess that you just enjoy it to much. Now stop before I get to some personal details that we shared when we were friends. You are getting to personal for my taste.
End this now.
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Joined: 10/4/2005
Posts: 5
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I think everyone wishes they had a rich uncle to show them the investment ropes early on. My uncle invested in Exxon in 1974 and I saw him looking at the Wall Street Journal for prices. I asked him what it all meant and he gave me a very basic answer and indicated he didn't know much about the numbers but it was enough to hook me for life. He is retired and still owns XOM and I am now the rich uncle. I think I only have 2 pieces of advice though. 1. Do your own thinking and trust your own thinking. 2. The less I talk about any trade I have on, the better I perform.
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Joined: 5/11/2009
Posts: 120
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QUOTE (Apsll) Before that we were friends you and I.
Now stop before I get to some personal details that we shared when we were friends.
End this now.
Yeah right.... now your true colors are showing. What an a$$. How can anyone consider this guy a friend?
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Hello tomson... what took you so long. I was wondering when you would show up. I owe Ben an appology. I am very certain that you are not new to the forum. Agm32 might be just about right. There are only about three maybe four candidates with your lust for my blood.
Yes Diceman and I were good friends at one time. I have been pouring over some old threads where he has designed indicators for me and we once tag teamed a couple of Elliot Nuts. We even had some dialog on another forum...
Maybe we will mend fences some day.
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Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 889
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QUOTE (Apsll) Diceman, I am very familiar with the thread. I was there remember? Show me where I say that I am right and everyone else is wrong. Show me where I say that Bens opinion is not just as valid as mine. It did get a little heated in some areas because he used the term "proof"......
I simply stated that he could not prove that we are in a Bull Market. This all started because I did not like your post that you made about not being able to play golf as well as "Tiger Woods" so it must be the golf clubs fault....
Before that we were friends you and I.
I have the right to discuss my opinions. Bigblock did not discuss opinions, he talked down to us and not with us; there is a difference and you know it. Will you please stop with your baseless babbling about me not respecting others opinions. I thought that you were above all this. I guess that you just enjoy it to much. Now stop before I get to some personal details that we shared when we were friends. You are getting to personal for my taste.
End this now.
Apsll,
you use the term "friend" like a daytrader uses a stock. My friends don't fluctuate from day to day depending on whether we share the same opinions.
The only person in this entire forum I have seen get personal is you.
You keep revising history: I never said "proof". In fact I said the opposite...that you cannot PROVE anything. I said I was submitting evidence for the folks here to interpret however they like. You apparently didn't like it, yet was unable to lay out a counter-argument with anything more than "how you feel". Maybe the MSN Psychology forum would be a better place for you.
You are an emotionally volatile person and I would warn anyone who thinks that they are currently your "friend" to be careful. You never know when your opinions might differ from Apsll's and he decides to use "personal details that you shared when you were friends" against you.
Your true colors ARE showing, and they are hideous.
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Registered User
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 4,308
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Ben and tomson. I stay in touch with more friends from these trading forums than you currently have. I have mentored and traded live with quit a few.
I am not at odds with Diceman over a difference of opinion. I was insulted and taken back by his coments that I have eluded to already. He still has not answered to this and I do not know if he will.
Everyone knows my true colors and always have. I am proud as a peacock and am not worried about what a new member to the forum thinks of me or an old troll (Agm32). I know that I can be abrasive, that is my nature. You do not like it then do not respond to my posts. I care not what your views about me are. I will continue to be me. I will continue to post my strategies and give my opinions and rub some folks the wrong way. Too bad for you. I would never really kiss and tell about Diceman. I just do not know currently what his problem is. We used to stay in touch through a private venue and until he re establishes that link than I will not know. he does know how to contact me.
So carry on Ben. You do not poses the tools to even get under my skin. Keep studying your charts bud.
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